The Toyota Landcruiser Owners Club

[Wandering Willy]

I'm posting this here (rather than on the 80 series forum) as it might be of interest to owners of other diesel engined Landcruisers. I have a 100 series which has a similar engine to that in the later 80s.

A current thread on the 80 series forum got into a discussion about engine oil. Jvoelcker provided a link to a New Zealand guy – Craig – who proposed that Japanese diesel engined cars really need an oil which is available in Japan but might not be widely available in the US or UK. The key issue is that the oil has a detergent additive in which is based on calcium rather than magnesium. The latter type of detergent doesn’t help the bearings resist the stresses and acidity of the engine environment – particularly when the engine is very hot. Since the 80 series is prone to big end bearing failure this looks like a useful bit of information.

The issue here is that engine oil is crucial for the healthy life of the engine (and car!) and getting the wrong oil for the 80 series diesel could be a fatal mistake. From Craig it looks like that has been happening too often for comfort.

In case you want to see Craig’s report, go to:-
http://www.markerink.org/WJM/HTML/80bigend_oil-analysis-scam.htm

Craig also provided the names of a couple of oil products which meet this detergent criterion. The list included a couple of Amsoil products and one from Castrol. However, the Amsoil products seem rather expensive (over £100 to refill an amazon!) and not readily available. So I contacted Castrol to find out what they can supply in the UK. I also noticed on a Hilux web site that Miller Oil have products which use Calcium rather than Magnesium as the basis of the detergent additive. So I contacted Miller as well.
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From Allan at Miller Oil:
HI - I HAVE SPOKEN TO MY TECHNICAL DIRECTOR WHO AS TOLD ME THAT THE FOLLOWING DO NOT CONTAIN MAGNESIUM

XSS RANGE
XFS RANGE
MAXIFLEET RANGE
MULTIFLEET RANGE
TRUCKMASTER RANGE

THE MILLERS PRODUCT FOR YOUR TOYOTA IS MAXIFLEET 15W/40
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The Castrol Engineer asked me not to quote his email until he had cleared it with his manager. I will post more on this if/when I get his agreement to do so. It’s enough to say that getting a suitable oil from them shouldn’t be a problem.

I have a couple of Miller Oil distributors locally and am going to check with them to see what is available (rather than distributed to fleets and the garage trade only). I’ll post that information shortly.

I suppose you could regard this information as a lot of hot air or pointless gossip but based on the problems experienced by owners of older 80 series landcruisers, it doesn’t look like something to ignore. I want to get the best life I can for my car and am happy to use whatever oil does the job.

On a related point, I have found I get better fuel consumption if I use a fully synthetic oil. The difference isn’t large (5%?) but given the price of fuel it’s worth having. So I will probably give Miller Oils XFS product a try when I next change.

Willy

[Google]

[Graham Smith]

Amsoil delivery within 24-48 hours...

Amsoil is available in the UK
_________________
Graham.

www.sfo.me.uk

"Miranda":- 1994 HDJ80, Allisport Intercooler, Warn winch, ARB bullbar, OME suspension 6cm lift, Long Range tank, TJM Spare Wheel Carrier

"Dessie": Desert Wolf Lynx off-road trailer

[Towpack]

My moneys still on it being a problem with the bearings themselves,not oil choice.The "Japanese only oil" theory doesn't make sense.Why??Not heard of any other diesel engined cars (and there must be hundreds of different models) that have suffered similar problems.
Just my opinion.
_________________
Phil


1998 HDJ80 Amazon VX 4.2TD
2004 Yamaha R1 (Sold)
2011 Ducati 1198SP (Sold)
2012 kawasaki ZZr1400
2002 Honda XR650R (BRP)- STOLEN GRRRRR!!!
2010 Husaberg FE570....YIPPEEEEE!!!!
2003 GT XCR3000
1995 Border Collie-Passed away 23-5-2011

[roscoFJ73]

[Desperatezulu]

This is a resuscitation of an old thread -

Willy, did you ever get further info on the Miller Oils? I'd also be interested in knowing what Castrol oil is "recommended" for LCs

[Wandering Willy]

No, nothing further from Miller Oil - which is a pity.

And I haven't tried their XFS but would be interested in any comments on it if anyone has anything to add.

Looking back over the recent history of the engines in the Amazon, the 4.2 diesel had a history of big end bearing failures. There was a suggestion that an oil with a J spec (for Japan, I guess) was best suited to the engine. There was an implication that using anything else would bring on the BEB failure problem. However, J spec oils aren't common in the UK so I was left wondering what else would do.

With my old Saab, I found that a good quality synthetic oil reduced fuel consumption by about 10% because - I assume - of its lower viscosity and being a better lubricant (i.e. lowering the friction of all the moving parts). I am using the equivalent diesel engine oil in the LC at present and it does what it should. However, it is expensive at £37 for 5 litres and may not be the best for the engine.

Someone suggested using the same stuff as the farmers do in their tractors. I can get a tractor engine oil for about £12 for 5 litres so that is a big saving if it protects the engine.

Between that and the fully synthetic stuff there are many alternatives. Something like the Millers XFS could be the optimum balance of price vs. performance.

Perhaps the answer is a relatively cheap (inexpensive, not cheap = nasty) replaced more frequently would be best.

I'd still be grateful for any thoughts

Willy

[garystockton]

Did anyone look further into the oils available here:

OpieOils

Found this on one of the threads on the forum.  They seem to have a lot of options, and will recommend based on the model you have (and offer club discounts, I think!)

Seems to be a really useful site - has everything from Mobil to Castrol to a lot of other specialty oils too, both mineral and fully synthetic.

My 2p worth (and the change can go in the beer-tin   )

[Desperatezulu]

Thanks, Willy

It's a difficult one to weigh up - the Millers XFS is not cheap at £40odd for 5l, so a good £120 per service (14l for the 4.2 diesel). In my view, you'd need some serious performance advantage to balance up the price vs. performance argument! Amsoil is even worse at £55-60/5l so it's a non-starter as far as I am concerned. My LC is 11 years old and I am not brave enough to test extended service intervals at this stage - I guess you could justify Amsoil at double or triple the service intervals but for me it would mean oil changes every couple of years as my mileage is pretty low (<5000 miles p.a.), which also is not recommended/desirable.

I note that the Millers XFS is 5W40 - whereas most LC owners (and I believe Toyota) maintain that 15W40 is the way to go for the 1HD. You're basically paying for additional (unnecessary?) operating range for the oil.

I run a 15W40 semi synthetic at present - I am a little uneasy about running full synthetic in an engine that was probably not designed for them? I am probably being too analytical about the whole thing  Ideally I'd like to run a mineral or semi-synthetic oil that had the detergent package that is designed for Japanese engines, for greatest peace of mind. The reality is that these engines can probably run happily on any half-suitable oil and endure long service intervals! I do not want to put this to the test on my 80 though

I would be interested in what oils people are running - both brand and grade!

Cheers,
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Andrew

'98 LC80 4.2TD VX 24v

[Towpack]

Halfords semi/synth 10w40, obviously made by one of the big oil producers but not sure which. Works fine,good OP hot and cold,easy starting and never needs topping up between changes. As has already been pointed out the 1H series engine is an old (20yrs) design hence the 'old' oil spec of API-CD. If the oil meets this it's good enough. Using a latest spec,fully synth,top price oil in the '80 is like feeding an elephant on strawberries.
_________________
Phil


1998 HDJ80 Amazon VX 4.2TD
2004 Yamaha R1 (Sold)
2011 Ducati 1198SP (Sold)
2012 kawasaki ZZr1400
2002 Honda XR650R (BRP)- STOLEN GRRRRR!!!
2010 Husaberg FE570....YIPPEEEEE!!!!
2003 GT XCR3000
1995 Border Collie-Passed away 23-5-2011

[DaveN]

Seeing as the problem has affected both early and later engines in the 80, jap imports and domestic supplied vehicles, it's probably going to affect 100 series as well. Some of those are now approaching the age at which the 80's started to have problems.

So 100 series owners, it may be prudent to swap out your BEB's.

[jvoelcker]

If you follow the research, predominatly from Aus where due to the higher mileages they cover each year they hit problems sooner, the BEB problem that everyone talks about has only been identified in the 1HD-T 12 valve engine.

The problem is down to the fact that the bearing shells were designed for the higher levels of Calcium found in the Japanese engine oils - the bearings are fine if you stick to Japanese oils or if you use a high quality synthetic oil like Amsoil that has the required levels, however if you use the standard 'western' oils the bearing shells start to degrade with scabbing occurring leading to eventual failure.

So, the recomendation with the 1HD-T engine is to replace the BEBs aroud the 100k mile mark - if you replce with Toyota shells you will need to replace them again after another 100k miles because they didn't alter the makeup of he shells.

If you want to change them once only, use the Australian ACL bearings that are designed for 'western' oils -that way once they are done they don't need to be touched at again.

In Aus the BEB issue was recognised by Toyota as a Warranty issue, mainly as a result of the campaigning of the LCOOL club, but unfortunately this wasn't picked up by the rest of the world.

None of the failures of BEBs in the 1HZ, 1HD-FT and 1HD-FTE engines have been identified as being down to the same issue.  There have been some random BEB problems on the 1HZ and 1HD-FT engines that have been linked to machining issues, but there is no set pattern and there isn't much you can do about it - there is certainly no evidence that swapping the BEBs on these engines will prevent the problems.  Any scabbing that has been seen on BEBs from any of the 1HZ, 1HD-FT and 1HD-FTE engines has generally been put down to poor servicing - either infrequent oil changes or using really cheap oil.

Of the dozens of BEBs that I have changed on the 1HD-T engine, well over 50% of them have shown some scabbing as shown in the photo below.



Unfortunately you have no idea how long the BEBs have been like this or how long they would have stayed like that before total failure.  These came out of a truck with around 220k miles on it, the ones from my 80 with 155k miles was about the same and I have even done a truck with around 120k miles on it where the shells were far worse.
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Cheers,

Julian
1994 HDJ80, with loads of mods without looking too obscene
1997 KZJ95 - Gilly's - plain black and muddy on BFG ATs.

[Desperatezulu]

Thanks for the info, Julian!
As there are mixed views about the merits of changing the BEBs on the 1HD-FT, I have been rather reluctant to take on the job and am focusing on at least putting the "right" oil in to try and minimise the risks of any engine issues! So far my LC is running very smoothly and is coming up to the 100,000mile mark so I have no major concerns. I don't want to bust a gut changing the BEBs if it's not really required and isn't going to add much.

Have you changed many BEBs in HD-FTs as preventative maintenance and, if so, what have the old shells looked like generally? I presume from what you're saying that your experience has been that the BEBs in most HD-FTs were fine on changing, unless they'd suffered some kind of abuse/poor maintenance?

On the subject of Japanese oils, do you have any idea where these can be bought reasonably easily and cost-effectively? So far, my searching has not thrown up any UK suppliers offering Jap-spec oils suitable for the HD series engines, which is in part why I have resurrected this post.

Cheers,
_________________
Andrew

'98 LC80 4.2TD VX 24v

[Olazz]

[joinerman]

Andrew,

An old saying springs to mind," shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted " i did my bearings at 111,000 miles & they were just like the ones in Julians pics above, i had good oil pressure & no indication anything was wrong. DO THEM BEFORE IT'S TO LATE, it's not a big job & not expencive, on the other hand, another engine is!!!!!!!!

[Desperatezulu]

Thanks Joinerman - I understand where you're coming from.
Is your LC a 24v/HD-FT? My reluctance to open up the bottom of the engine is that often opening an engine and fiddling around replacing something unintentionally causes other problems, especially if you're not a hot-shot mechanic (which I surely am not ).  If failure was imminent then I would tackle the job asap and do my best with the ACL bearings, assuming Milners now have these back in stock.
There doesn't appear to be a legion of upset 24v owners with damaged/destroyed cranks up and down the country and I imagine that the majority of the hundreds (thousands?) that were sold in the UK are probably still running today with their original BEBs. There are still occasional reports of 12v HD-T failures happening though.

I am no expert on the inner workings of the HD engines but the learned folk on this forum appear fairly certain that the HD-FT does not usually suffer this problem. I have read on the LCOOL and other websites that the odd HD-FT has suffered apparently similar problems the HD-T BEB failures but these are much less common. My LC is one of the last 24v 80s made so I am optimistic that the dodgy BEBs were improved. So I am trying to do my best to ensure that I run my LC with the most suitable oil to try and achieve the greatest reliability.

To respond with a cliche - "don't fix what ain't broke"   A stitch in time does save 9, so it is a job I intend to do in the fullness of time but while my LC is largely seeing weekend use and nothing too taxing at that, I intend to keep the maintenance well up to scratch and hold off the BEB change for for now.

All the best!
_________________
Andrew

'98 LC80 4.2TD VX 24v