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Vibration on coming to a halt

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bungle1
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Joined: 20 Oct 2005
Posts: 26
Location: norfolk

PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 13:20    Post subject: Vibration on coming to a halt Reply with quote

Hi Folks, I am fairly new to the club, but I have owned Landcruiser Amazons VX TD's since 1992. I now run a 1999 series 100. I am a qualified engineer and carry out nearly all my own repairs, but I have a problem that is getting to me. Senario:- On startup drive off no problem brake a couple of times carry on for maybe a couple of miles braking at various times pull up at junctions nothing then maybe next time I almost come to a standstill a fairly violent vibration sets in for the last 5 -10 yards until I come to a halt. It will not happen again until the next day. I thought it may have been rust on the disc's but it is not. I have checked the pads they are nice and meaty, there is nothing loose around the caliper area in fact there is nothing loose anywhere. I do not use the handbrake so sticky shoes not the problem. Is there anyone out there with the solution. All suggestions will be taken into account and checked.

Many thanks in anticipation Bungle1
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Grimbo
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Joined: 25 Jul 2005
Posts: 773
Location: Ashdown Forest

PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2005 22:01    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seems to me you checked all obvious things, what about sticking piston in either front or rear calipers, have known this in 4 & 6 pot calipers on rally car's. Only real way of checking is to take calipers off, pads out, and check piston's for rust, etc , clean of anything, then if no marks that could damage seals, undo bleed screw's and push each fully back into caliper. Then reasemble shims, pads ,etc . Bleed brakes right through as change of fluid never harms. Wheel Bearings ? drive shafts ? Good Luck Smile
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bungle1
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Joined: 20 Oct 2005
Posts: 26
Location: norfolk

PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 10:01    Post subject: Vibration at rear end under braking Reply with quote

Hi Grimbo,
Yes, I have checked the calipers no problem there, no rust
,new pads, copper grease lub,re bled.
thanks
Bungle1
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Grimbo
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Joined: 25 Jul 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2005 20:45    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm out of ideas then, let us know what you find , I'm allways ready to learn, Smile
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Dubbing Mixer
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Joined: 10 Dec 2005
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Location: West Sussex

PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 20:41    Post subject: Reply with quote

From information gleaned from other forums, there is a chance that the torque converter may be at fault. I'll keep my fingers crossed it isn't!

Please let us know the outcome.
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bungle1
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Joined: 20 Oct 2005
Posts: 26
Location: norfolk

PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2005 15:26    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Dubbing Mixer,
Yes you could be in the right area, If I pull away in low, then manually change to 2nd, then drive no vibration when I finally come to a halt. I was thinking more in the lines of bands either worn, loose or sticking when coming back down through the box. I cannot see where the vibration could develope from the torque converter, I have been told an oil change, flush and new filter could solve the problem, can do nothing yet until I locate a genuine Toyota workshop manual for the box, then I can strip it. Many thanks for your concern.
Bungle1
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bungle1
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Joined: 20 Oct 2005
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Location: norfolk

PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2005 15:30    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dubbing Mixer,

Sorry about this but I meant to ask what other forums were you looking at, just incase the info is relevant.

Many thaks Bungle1
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realspeed
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Joined: 02 Nov 2005
Posts: 52
Location: West Midlands

PostPosted: Sat Dec 17, 2005 2:01    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just a thought, When the brake discs are cold everything is ok it seems but when heated by breaking the shuddering occures. Would it be worth considering the discs getting distorted when hot? Maybe having them skimmed would help as you don't say if there is any obvious signs of wear on them ie rut /pits/grooves.
Also I would check to see if the break pads don't loosen in the caliper when hot albeit retained properly. All it needs is some expansion due to a manufacturing fault, or even the slave cylinders need attention. Heat can do funny things to what appears normal when cold.
As you don't say the mileage covered by the vehicle this is all I can come up with.

Realspeed


Realspeed
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bungle1
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Joined: 20 Oct 2005
Posts: 26
Location: norfolk

PostPosted: Sat Dec 17, 2005 12:11    Post subject: Reply with quote

realspeed, hi,
Thanks for the comments re brakes but they have now been taken out of the equation, as I have completely overalled them, it really does seem like a gearbox or torque converter problem and I will look into it further when Toyota manage to find a genuine workshop manual for me.

Thanks again Bungle1
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Boatman
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Joined: 03 Jan 2006
Posts: 18
Location: Gloucestershire

PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2006 15:03    Post subject: Vibration Reply with quote

Hi, Bungle1 and everyone.

I've just joined the forum as I've also got a 1999 Amazon VX series 100 TD with the same symptoms. The timing is exactly as you describe - it usually happens about 4 or 5 miles after starting from cold and occasionally at other times.

My local dealer reckons it's the torque converter not releasing when it should and they say the only cure is a new torque converter. In extreme cases the juddering is very severe and it feels as if it is about to stall the engine. To date, it has always let go before that happens. Knocking the transmission selector into N always cures the problem, and on selecting D after coming to rest all is sweetness and light.

I'm not 100% convinced it's the torque converter, but suspect the problem may be in the transmission itself for the following reason. With the vehicle running in third on a level road or gentle uphill, if I gently increase the throttle opening to the point where it is just about to change down, just before it changes I get a similar but much fainter vibration (feels like driving over the marks left by something with caterpiller tracks). On opening the throttle a bit more it changes down and the vibration stops.

I don't have a detailed understanding of this particular transmission (workshop manual is on order as of this morning), but I suspect the selector brake bands may not be releasing promptly leaving two gears partially engaged at the same time when changing down, and holding it in too high a gear when coming to rest. (Not sure whether it is supposed to change down as speed reduces with throttle closed or whether it stays in a high gear until you demand power). If it's designed to stay in third or top while coming to rest then the shuddering problem is definitely due to the torque converter IMHO. In which case, the slight vibration on slow changedowns may be a separate problem unrelated to the shuddering on coming to a halt.

Hope this helps.
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bungle1
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Joined: 20 Oct 2005
Posts: 26
Location: norfolk

PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2006 13:15    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Boatman,
Sorry to hear that I am not the only one with this problem. I will try changing to neutral as and when it happens again and then to D see if it clears the shuddering as your does. I suspect the same as you, the bands are not releasing on change down, I have not been able to get my local Toyota dealers to locate a manual for me with respect to the auto box, apparently most of their data now comes on disc's. I would appreciate a part number if you have one. Please keep in touch with any new developments and much obliged for your info.

Bungle1
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Boatman
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Joined: 03 Jan 2006
Posts: 18
Location: Gloucestershire

PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2006 21:05    Post subject: Workshop manual Reply with quote

Hi Bungle1,

I haven't got a Toyota manual - last time I asked it seemed you needed about 5 or 6 parts to cover the whole vehicle and they were mega-expensive. Can't remember exactly, but >>50 each part seems to ring a bell.

Anyway, I've just got an Max Ellery (Australian) manual from Amazon.co.uk - ref TO.18, costs 15.65 inc postage, so worth a look, I thought. It's a bit like a Haynes book although slightly less tendency to say "too difficult for you, take it to a dealer". Gives a number of tests to try on the auto transmission, with acceptability criteria (stall speeds, time to engage drive etc), but no mention of our problem.

Will post on here as the story unfolds. Good luck with yours.
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bungle1
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Joined: 20 Oct 2005
Posts: 26
Location: norfolk

PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 17:04    Post subject: Reply with quote

Boatman,
Hi there again, I have tried the push into neural when the vibration starts, but it does not dissapear immediately. I have tried accelerating hard into top then letting the vehicle slow down to a stop without applying the brakes, not at any time did the vibration occur,I did this test about five times from cold, the vibration is only brought on when breaking and coming to a standstill. This is beginning to look like a torque converter problem. Thanks for the info on the manual.

Bungle1
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bungle1
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Joined: 20 Oct 2005
Posts: 26
Location: norfolk

PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 13:05    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi everybody,

Well first many thanks to all those fellow 100 series owners who added their words of wisdom to my little problem. Having eliminated brakes, auto gearbox and various other items that lurk between the road surface and the floor pan it turns out that the weak link is the torque converter. I have located here in the depths of Norfolk some wonderful and very knowledgeable people who are only too willing to pass on there hard gained experience and their time. I had it explained to me that lurking between the two vein plates, keeping them apart within the converter is a composite washer, it was apparently made with naff material and after a period of time begins to brake down, making the gap between the vein plates narrower, this in turn makes it harder for the fluid to seperate the plates, they in turn bind and cause the shudder until they get enough fluid between them, this is just the beginning. As the washer wears further the problems get worse, lumpy running in gear at a standstill (the effect is not very noticeable with the air conditioning on as the revs are slightly higher). Then the stalling starts when you come to a halt, finally it just will not drive. Well a new Torque Conv. is somewhere in the region of 900 plus vat, then theres fitting, hate to think what Main Dealership houly rate is, but look in the region of 5 -7 hours. My man will remove gearbox and torque conv. send it away to be stripped a new material composite washer fitted, all fitted back again for a total cost of 450 inc. vat. with a years warranty, although he pointed out that the warranty would not be needed, and the Torque Conv. would outlive the vehicle. Apparently the original washer that gave this problem was only fitted between 1999 -2001. Well as I have said before I normally do all my own repairs but on this occasion i am having it done on 2nd February. I will tell you the end result after this date,
I find it sad that my local dealership could not be bothered to explain these facts to me when I questioned them when this problem first came to light, in fact it makes me very bitter the way they come across with their high and mighty attitude. I have got to the point that I wouldnt give them a Dinky toy to repair. Any way many thaks to one and all for the comments and remedies.

Bungle 1
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Grimbo
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 20:14    Post subject: Reply with quote

Glad you sussed it, good to have a resolution posted to, so we can all learn, its the way forwards for the site to get even better Very Happy
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